merefaith: two friends on pilgrimage

Hey Chris. Saw your comment on Dr. Finn's blog and thought I'd say hey. "Alvin" is Dr. Alvin Reid, my former colleague at HBU and now SEBTS Evangelism Prof.

Not sure who iMonk is and couldn't quite figure out from this except he seems to be a Scott Hahn fan, who is more apologist than ecumenist like a number of the recent Catholic converts. It's too easy to make enemies of one's near neighbors. Perhaps a vow of silence till they have become more habituated?

Hope you and Kelly are adjusting to the back porches of Roxoboro. Not a bad life.

Cheers,
Curtis Freeman

Hey Chris,
First thoughts on your post:
I definitely agree with proper ecumenicism. I long for the day to see a renewed Christendom. Scott Hahn people can be annoying, though. They are like hyper-calvinists. Instead of applying good insights from Scripture/Tradition, they repeat the same tired mantras.

There is a catholicity movement in the Reformed world. It is in its puberty stage.

Responding to your comment:
I wasn't bashing Stanley. And I fully agree that the Church is often compromised by the principalities. But given my reading of Milbank and Cavanaugh (an Anglican and a Catholic--I get ecumenical points for that), I don't believe that it must necessarily be coercive and "violent" (the latter being a hip term in postmodern discussions).

Now, how that plays out is beyond me.

Hello Chris,

Are you are catholic now?

John

A few things:

(1) Most statements that begin "I simply don't believe" have little, if any, force.

(2) I think, given the iMonk's situation, he's not thinking clearly. He's terrified deep down.

(3) What would "Jesus-like" be? On what authority and by which standards would we define it?

(4) "If the Christian God is only REALLY available at a few places in town, then I want nothing to do with him."

Hey, the gate is narrow and few find it. That's in the Baptist Bible. This paragraph sounds like what many converts would say: "If I can't have him on my own terms, i don't want him"

(4b) I think you and the iMonk miss the Catholic point here: y'all are Christians, and have some real, if imperfect, experience of Jesus. You've presented an either-or here, but it's more like a both/and.

(5) "If the invitations of Jesus to come to him don’t apply to me wherever I and my simple faith in Jesus happen to be, then it’s Buddhism for me."

That's childish. But beyond that, one can have a simple faith in the Catholic Church.

And the idea that religion must be "simple" is borderline heresy. The world is complex. God is a complex being. Our faith -- as a body of doctrine -- is going to be somewhat complex. The idea of simplicity in religion is more of an Enlightenment idea, not a Christian idea.

(6) "I don’t have these anxieties about what is the true church. Jesus is the mediator and Jesus is enough. No church dispenses him."

If y'all don't have these anxieties, why are they before the whole world? iMonk sure sounds like he's full of anxieties. And does it bother any of all y'all that Jesus said he'd build his church on the rock of Peter? however we interpret that -- whether Peter himself or his confession -- Jesus said he'd build his (singular) church. he speaks with the apostles as if they *do* dispense him. These things are in the baptist Bible as well.

So I'm glad all y'all are so confident, but I wonder if it isn't false confidence masking a world of doubt deep down. I only suspect that because I've been there.

Irenaeus,

1. You simply don't believe that Michael simply doesn't believe?

2. Perhaps not. But I appreciate (and understand) the sentiment. For what it's worth, I wasn't thinking clearly when I felt I needed to become Orthodox or something like that.

3. Jesus-like is Jesus-like. :-). Ok, yes, it's more complicated than that and yet it's not. Kind of a both/and. Being like Jesus is discerned as the community seeking to be like Jesus gathers around Scripture for prayer and collective discernment resulting in action.

4. The gate is narrow - and yet, "in every place incense and pure oferings are brought to my name" (Malachi 1:11). That's in the BIBLE too.

4b. I understand the Catholic position and reject it wholeheartedly.

5. Pot, kettle, black. Few things are more childish than your insulting mischaracterizations.

6. I think I've explained already what invests me in this. And you're going to keep misinterpreting Matthew??

I suspect your confidence in going Catholic or else is a lot of bluster founded on little thought. I should know, I've been there.